Tuesday, January 26, 2010

"The Paladin Method...is probably too good"

/Cower

Yeah, when I see this coming out of GhostCrawler's crabby mouth, I tuck my tail under and run. Don't look him in the eyes. It shows dominance. If you do this, he will surely bite you back & nerf the living day lights out of you.

Here's the Blues Quote from yesterday:

       "Long term, the paladin manner of generating AE damage and threat is probably too good, given how simple it is."

Well, what do you except? Was consecrate meant to be hard? Do you want me to do the hokey-pokey when it's on the ground? Well, this sentence could be blown WAY out of proportion given the context. The problem actually comes from Warrior tanking and how something needs to be fixed with their single target DPS. Yeah, you heard me... a tank bitching about his DPS.

But Fuu, we were talking about Paladin's "easy as pie" consecrate which is an AoE. How does that have anything to do with Single Target?

Well, my Good readers, Blizzard states that they are actually more concerned about Single target DPS than say AoE.

Quote from the Crab:

       "We're much more concerned about tank single target dps than we are tank AE dps. Especially in Icecrown, there are virtually no fights where the tank's dps contribution on an AE fight is really going to amount to much. You can make an argument that single target dps can be relevant on e.g. Festergut (though again, I still don't think there are that many cases where the difference between success and fail are the tank's dps)."

What a knee slapper! At least what I thought. Yeah, I do laugh when I'm second on the DPS meters when I run heroics on Fuu but who cares. I'm suppose to be doing around 1.8-2.5k DPS in my current gear. I've read that some tanks are even pushing 4-5k DPS on some fights. That to me is a little ridiculous but my 2-2.5k is like a DPS in blues.

The reason I believe that this question was even remotely taken seriously was because Warriors were being replaced by other tanks because they could do more DPS (I've heard rumors). Granted, it's not by much, but adding 800-1,500 more DPS in the mix really could be the key to a Success verse a wipe. I agree that if tanks are being replaced in a raid because of something that's out of their hands, Blizzard is doin' it wrong.

Do we have to bust out the old Projection Slide from the Pre WotLK era? Tanks were NOT created equal during that time. Warrior tanks were the ONLY tanks that were "viable" to do end-game raiding from Vanilla all the way through the end of TBC. Paladin tanks were laughed at. I was mocked for wanting to tank as a Paladin. "Why aren't you Holy?" They ask. "Why don't you DIAF" I say.

Today, Blizzard has done an incredible job of making every tank viable for every fight and can I say that I love it? I think that they are really living up to the "Bring the player not the class" mentality. If I'm the best tank (gear, spec, threat, experience) then I should be the MT not Mister Druid who walks in with crappy gear and has never done it in his life just because he's a Druid. Now, I'm not saying that they are perfect but given that we don't want all four tanking Classes to look, act, work the same, they've done a bang up job.

GhostCrawler goes on to talk about AE and how they really want to steer clear of it when Cataclysm hits. I agree that it's gotten a little out of hand. Run in, (cast AoE spell) wait 3 seconds then move to the next pile. BORING!

Almost every heroic instance has become just that. I would like to see more CC in further content. I think that Icecrown Citadel has put the CC back into ICC ;) Heck, even the 5-man heroics need a little CC now and then. HoR in the first room is a BITCH to tank if you aren't doing it right. We figured out that if you Los (aka hide in the corner like a  pansy) things just come to you and you AoE them down. Again, lame. Paladins get to use their turn Evil spells (which most paladins totally didn't know they had) Priests can Shackle and OMG I know how they love that (aka Jess, "Can I shackle something? Please! OMG SHACKLES!")

Since I appear to be horribly off on a tangent, let me 'splain... let me sum up:

What I perceive from the quotes from GC:

- Single Target DPS is more important to them (aka for all 4 tanks to be similar) out of anything else
- Warriors are probably going to be receiving a few tweaks to bring them inline with other tanking classes in the Single target DPS category
- AoE tanking everything might be the thing of the past when Cataclysm hits

Here's my question(s) for all of out there:
- What do you think about AoE (tanking or DPSing)?
- Do you feel that all tanks are on par with each other in terms of DPS, Tanking capabilities, AoE, survivability, etc.?
- What would you like to see changed in the next expansion if anything at all?

This is actually projected to people who are not Paladin tanks. I'm curious as to what Warriors, DKs, and Druids feel about these things. I would really like for the comments to not just be QQs but if you have a complaint, tell me why and how you want it fixed. If you blog, make a post! I want to hear from you! (link to it in the comments so that I am able to read it)

<3 Fuu

10 comments:

  1. Not so much a complaint because I like my warrior, but right now we are outclassed. Bringing a paladin tank to a raid is straight up better - more effective health, easier to heal, a lot more damage (this is why single target dps matters, it's for fights like festergut).

    Bringing a paladin to a heroic is straight up better too, and that does hurt me because dps are not smart enough to know that you have to act differently with different tanks and that you can't just open up with a warrior like you can with a paladin.

    Nope, they blame the tank when they can't do that, not the class design.

    Ultimately, if Blizzard don't want AE threat to be so high that dps can do whatever they want, they need to nerf it all round, starting from the top.

    If they want hard dps races in raids where single target damage counts, then it isn't fair to have one tank do 1k dps more than another.

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  2. I'm a noob in skill, but decent in gear Blood DK Tank and I think our AOE threat is pretty good. Unless I really mess up a pull, my DnD is usually good enough to hold mobs to me until I can regenerate enough runes to Blood boil.

    I've done some tanking, mostly lower-level dungeons on both a Pally and Druid, and I think both of those actually have an easier time AOE tanking, but not by much. I have yet to try Warrior tanking.

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  3. @ Spinks

    I agree that all tanks Single Target DPS should be even. I didn't even know that it was that far off from eachother. I understand in mobile fights I'm going to be able to keep aggro & DPS longer because I have a DoT ticking at all times on my target but (especially Warriors) we should be on the same playing field. Now DKs on the other hand could potentialy be doing more damage than the other Tanks because they do not have a shield but another Sword (if they are Dual W.)

    I've also heard the complaint about DPS acting dumb because they were used to Paladin AoE. Would this be a similar complaint with DKs as well since they have D&D?

    Let's say they were to nerf D&D and Consecrate but Warriors & Druids get to keep their "Snap Aggro" how does that work?

    I'm nervous that the Pendulum will swing wildly the other way again.

    Good Stuff!
    Thanks for the Comment Spinks :)

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  4. "I'm nervous that the Pendulum will swing wildly the other way again."


    Totally understandable, and I hope it doesn't happen too. I'd be happy to see the tanks all close enough on performance that people could happily just pick their favourite.

    In all honestly, they are probably closer now than they ever have been before.

    I think with DKs, their AE threat is excellent but they also have to be a bit careful of runes, they can't just chain pull group after group and they can't always easily pick up an extra group if runes are down when some dps gets funny and decides to start pulling. So requires dps to pay just a bit more attention.

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  5. By far, paladins are the most wanted tanks right now. It should be more even. I have to say tanking the new places as a dk is kinda fun, because when that annoying hunter is attacking my poor little healer, I can just yell Come Here, mortal combat style. Ya so that is fun. But as far as raids go, a dk tank is typcially lower in dps as pallys and druids, higher than warriors, but also terrible survivability. If you have the best gear ever, dk tanks are ok, but why take one to a raid when you can have a pally! I would love to see dk tanks survivability buffed. I think they were nerfed so much because of pvp, which is simply retarded.

    As far as D&D, it is on the same level as a druid swipe. I don't play a warrior, but any druid who complains about aoe aggro is doing something wrong. I mean swipe and maul!? Cmon bear aggro can be quite insane!

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  6. Note: This is from Fulguralis to my email

    Really, this is how I see the tanking break down in several main categories, scale 1-5 (5 being best):

    Paladins – AoE Threat: 5; ST Threat: 5; AoE DPS: 4; ST DPS: 4; Survivability: 5
    Pallies don’t get perfects across the board, just barely though. Survivability is how “hard you are to heal” plus if you have good CDs and damage soaking abilities… etc. Basically “can you take a beating?” Pallies are the all-stars at everything forever right now. They really don’t have a weak point.
    DKs – AoE Threat: 4; ST Threat: 5; AoE DPS: 5; ST DPS: 5; Survivability: 2
    DKs AoE threat scores a bit lower because it takes us more than one spell to get them locked on, but it’s still pretty stellar. DPS is on par with Pallies, if not above. A common DK complaint is that they’re hard to heal, which I tend to agree with.
    Warriors – AoE Threat: 3; ST Threat: 4; AoE DPS: 1; ST DPS: 2; Survivability: 5
    I think Warriors still make great tanks as far as healers are concerned, but their AoE threat is only average and their DPS is abysmal compared with the first two classes. Add to this that Warriors don’t walk in raring to go (they need to build energy/rage like druids) and it makes their job really hard if they’re going to MT. As an OT they shine since they’ll be in full swing by the time the DPS gets on their target most of the time
    Druids – AoE Threat: 3; ST Threat: 4; AoE DPS: 3; ST DPS: 4; Survivability: 4
    Druids are plagued by the same problems as warriors with the rage and only average AoE threat. They’re slightly harder to heal due to being big sponges, but not as bad as a DK. Their DPS is pretty average too. I think the reason you don’t hear much complaint from the Druid camp is that they really are pretty decent across the board. Pallies may be the tanking all-stars right now, but Druids are pretty balanced too, not sporting one glaring deficiency.

    Now these are all opinions based on hearsay and rumor, not grounded in fact, so take that as you will. Just my two cents.

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  7. As a druid, I feel very comfortable going into AOE situations. I rarely have trouble controlling 4-5 movs at once. In single target boss fights, I get to use a few more tools, which makes it a bit more fun. I think I'd prefer AOE to do less damage, though, so that efficient killing is usually going to be single target, so that the tank has to use 1 or 2 AOE attacks to gather the mobs, but then we focus on single-target to maintain aggro. Right now, I pretty much have to spam AOE attacks to maintain threat on the whole group unless I'm in a heroic with lower-geared DPS (ie. not completely overpowered for the fight).

    I feel like my bear survivability is on par with a lot of the warriors and death knights that I see, but Paladins do seem to win out with similar gear levels. (Although I may be biased due to the people I typically run with.) If I'm in a PUG raid, it seems like the RL always picks the tank with the highest health to be MT. Sadly, that player is usually much harder to heal than a paladin with a little less health. (I'm usually healing in PUG raids. And there's plenty of tanks out there, they just aren't running many 5-mans.)

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  8. I stand by what I said, druid tanks who don't have awesome AOE threat are doing something wrong. I agree with Finwe. As far as healing goes, I have healed all four classes. Druids and pallys are easy mode to heal. Warriors are fine, but death knights are a nightmare, if not geared out.

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  9. The main reason i give it low marks is because as a DPS, you have to learn to be patient with a druid tank. Unless the druid is chain pulling, they won't have a high amount of aggro right away. It's the same thing I've noticed with warrior. DKs start off pretty high but can get rune starved. Pallies are like... wtf is wrong with you guys: HARDCORE ALL TEH TIMES!

    Ugh. They're so pretentious. :-)

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  10. Ya that can def be true in a five man, I suppose I was considering a raid setting, when druids can use enrage before the boss. I know sometimes on 5 man pulls enrage is on cd.

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