Wednesday, December 16, 2009

3.3 Death Knight Frost DPS Methodology

Everything you want to know about ("casual") Death Knight Frost DPSery, right here, in one article.  Similar to what I've done with my Affliction Warlock HAOW series, only in one marathon of information.  Why?  Well I just don't have as much to say about Death Knights.  It's my alt.  A raiding alt that I really enjoy playing on, but an alt all the same.  There are subtle differences in the way I treat my alt compared to my main.  Chief among them: I'm not as serious about my alt.  This toon is designed to be respectable and fun, not the top dog.  If I want to /flex, I'll go on my 'lock, but that doesn't mean I want to look like noobsauce on this toon.

The Spec
With that in mind, I went with a 15/56/0 spec

It's important to note that my aim is to be able to do two things well with this spec. The first, I'd like to be able to DPS in a PvE environment competitively. The second, I'd like to feel useful in PvP Battlegrounds. Thus, some points are chosen for that sort of utility, even though I know it makes my spec not "the best" raiding spec or "the best" PvP spec. It's a hybrid spec. For instance, my PvP needs are what entice me to spec into both Rune Tap and Chillblains.  You may want to take the points I "waste" there and put them in Virulence or filling up Dark Conviction (for example).

The Glyphs
This also reflects itself in my choice of glyphs. You can see from the link above that I'm going with:
  • Howling Blast - To spread Frost Fever and, thereby, Chillblains. Awesome for keeping melee away from demolishers, etc.  Also great to spread out the deeps.
  • Disease - One button, one rune refreshing of diseases. Totally a must for DPS as it lets you throw in a lot more Obliterates.
  • Obliterate - If I'm going to be trying to use more of these, it makes sense to buff it.
  • Horn of Winter - Nothing like extending your horn.  Think Hodir-ish puns here.
  • Pestilence - Spread your disease like a bad brothel.
  • Raise Dead - Free Ghoul, 'nuff said.
The Rotation
I'm no where near perfect with it, but when I'm playing well, it ends up looking something like:

IT > PS > OB > FS > Pest > OB > OB > FS (repeating basically Pest, OB's, FS as they come up and making sure my diseases never fall off. Also, I throw in a HB whenever Rime procs... looking for the shinies around your player)

It's pretty simple, fun, and puts up respectable numbers.  Watch for your procs and try to be flexible.  The more OBs, FSs, and Rime procs you can fire off with buffs up, the better, but don't do it at the cost of running your diseases out.

I know that in the course of my research, it was tough to figure out what DW weapons to use. So here's the easy answer: you want a slower weapon in each hand in order to maximize the damage of your special spells.  Since they're calculated with respect to your base damage, and your base damage is directly relational to the weapon speed, you want two slow weapons.  Why?  Let's say you have two weapons, each with the same "DPS" but one is fast and the other is slow.  In order to equalize the DPS, the slow weapons has to have more damage per hit.  Since specials are calculated on damage per hit, I think you can see why we say "go slow".

A second important pointer here is that there are only two things that refresh your Improve Icy Talon talent: Icy Touch and Howling Blast.  Refreshing the disease with Pest does NOT do it.  Usually, I get rime procs often enough that my HB's keep IIT refreshed, but if I see it fall off, I will do a manual refresh and start the whole thing over.  You may lose out on some personal DPS, but the benefit to your raid as a whole is usually worth it.

I don't really change up the rotation for AoE situations except to use HBs in place of OBs when I can to maximize my damage.  You still will want to put up and spread your diseases first, then weave HBs and RP dumps.  As a DK that's specced into HB, AoE situations really let you put up some good numbers.  A lot of DPSers will throw in a DnD too, which is good, I just always feel like it screws up my runes.  Watch your aggro though, because you can be quite bursty, plus DnD does high threat.

The Stats
Hit (until cap) > Str > Expertise (until cap) > Crit > Haste

Ewww numbers: Melee hit cap is 263 raw (8%).  With Nerves of Cold Steel, we only need to hit 164 (8-3=5%).  More hit will still help, as our spells can go all the way up to 17% before cap.  Virulence helps with this.  Our spells include HB and IT, so after melee cap this stat weight only falls slightly for us, probably being in between Crit and Haste until Spell Capped.  Expertise cap is 26 - 5 (Tundra Stalker) = 21 Expertise.  Different from "rating".  Racials also factor in depending on what weapon you're using, so check that out too.

It's also good to rune you weapon with Fallen Crusader (MH) and Razorice (OH).

Wrap Up
That's it for my DPS DK.  Pretty short and simple, which is how I do my lone raiding alt.  She's a great change of pace and I love to PvP on her, but mostly I raid on her because sometimes I run into save issues on my 'lock or just to knock out old content with newer raiders.  It gives me something else to gear when there's "nothing" in it for my 'lock (really, there's always emblems, but like... I've got those coming out the fel ears now right?).

I'm sure a lot of you could come up with better pure raid specs, feel free to leave 'em in comments to help others out who stop by.  Also, if you're a frosty DK like me, do you roll with the same rotation?  Same basic set up?  This is one toon where I know I still have stuff to learn.


  1. I roll with this same rotation, this is similiar to my old 2H frost dps spec but i like DW much better.

  2. A friend clued me in on another rotation.

    Lead with Howling blast. You already have the glyph, so it spreads frost fever. It hits multiple targets, uses the same rune, and is ranged.

    Honestly, I skip plague strike, and just go right into Blood Strike/Blood boil (depending on the number of mobs), same, then Ob, then Frost strike until HB is back up. It seems in my rotation, sometimes I get another Blood Strike or Ob in, before my HB comes up, and then I use that, and hope it procs for the auto-crit on my HB.

  3. A couple things to watch out for. #1 I believe OB gets a bonus multiplier based on how many diseases are up. Thus, if you're skipping plague strike, you may be gimping your OBs by as much as 2X! My understanding is it's something along those lines. #2 Leading off with HB can cause you to pull aggro if the tank isn't front loading AoE threat. This depends more on the tank you're running with, but IT can be the safer alternative when raiding.

    With that being said, I def try to work in HBs as much as pos-si-ble. Many HBs, handle it! :-)

  4. I'm curious though. You just explained that you just put points into Icy Talons and impIcy Talons, which if i'm not mistaken increases your melee speed and grants you haste.... but I also just read that if your gonna go frost dps and in your case (duel weild) you should get two very slow 1 handers. Not only are slow 1 handers very hard to find... regardless of what weapon you use won't your weapon now be very slow because of ImpIcy Talons? This is why im afraid to try that spec out.

  5. Correction: Won't your weapons be very fast! Is what i meant to write. Anyone feel free to help me on this puzzling matter.

  6. Yes, and though it may seem confusing, I assure you it makes sense. Let me see if I can explain better...

    We choose slow one handed weapons because the DPS per swing of the weapon will be higher than a fast weapon. For example, if you have a 100 DPS weapon (it tells you the weapon's DPS in the tooltip)... and it does 1 swing per second... then each swing is 100 damage. Now if it does two swings per second (is faster), it will only do 50 damage per swing. With me? Since your special attacks are calculated off of the swing damage... you want the slower (higher per swing) weapon.

    Icy Talons grants you melee haste. It does NOT affect the DPS of the weapon, but rather how quickly your swing timer is. If you take that same 100 DPS 1 swing per second weapon and apply melee haste, you'll still have the 100 damage per swing, but the swing might take .75s now instead... gaining you overall DPS, but not affecting the damage per swing.

    Thus, taking IIT doesn't affect the strength of your special abilities where the weapon speed certainly does.

    It's also important to note that the stat "haste" (as in the green text you find on a weapon) does something even different. The haste stat lowers cast times and your global cooldown for special attacks. I think it also affects melee haste, but that doesn't work the other way around (i.e. melee haste does not affect your special attacks or GCD).

    It can be quite confusing, but that is how I understand the mechanics and why the spec makes sense to me. I could be wrong, but everything I've read seems to support this understanding.

    The only reason we pick slow weapons is because of the special attacks are calculated based off of a "per swing" value. All additional haste stats will only affect the number of swings, not the "per swing" value. That comes standard with the weapon.

  7. Slow Offhand? i figured a fast offhand would be better for more Killing Machine procs, unless KM doesnt proc from OH swings.

  8. I used to run as frost, but switched to Blood when Frost became a DW tree, because I had a much better 2H weapon and didn't want to have to grind out two 1H weapons to replace it. If I could gear up a bit and get a pair of decent 1Hers I'd probably switch back, Frost is awesome fun.

    Anyway, just looking at the rotation you mention, and I see you're only using one of your blood runes. You should try working a Blood Strike into there too, after Pestilence. It's an extra 10 RP and will mean that on the second half of your rotation you'll have two death runes (from Blood of the North), which means you can do a third OB in the second part of the rotation. Between the two that will mean 25 extra RP, which should allow you an extra FS in there too. I'm not sure if you'll have enough to get a second one in every rotation though, since you don't have the Chill of the Grave talent. I think you'd get an extra FS every second rotation instead.

  9. @Anon - Yes, because of the Threat of Thassarian talent, your special abilities also deal damage based on your offhand weapon. Thus, you would want the same "speed" requirements as you would for the main hand.

    @Simon - You're absolutely correct in your suggestion. I could totally weave in another BS. In practice, I've found that when I do that, I do squeeze in an extra OB and all that, but then I suffer from rune cooldowns later and my diseases fall off and bad things happen to good people. In short, I guess I'm not good enough to manage it. When I leave the BS out, things just tend to flow better in my experience. Sometimes what is best on paper doesn't work for me in practice, and this is one of those. Still, when things are going well, I'll throw one in and sometimes it works. I'm just not as smooth as I need to be yet.

  10. This is a good one. I sued to have similiar in 2h frost (Well I got Lichborne as you can make a macro that uses it and blasts you with Death coil. Bit extra healing on PvP, and with 2h I had points to spare). I love the fact that you can slow the heck out of everyone, as it works wonders in arena when I go harras the healer while my pal blasts the dps.

    For those wondering about the IIT: We don't want slow weapons because they are slow, but because they HIT HARD per hit. IT/melee haste/whatever doesn't do anything to damage per hit. They just make the same hits come faster.

    And yes you could go for faster offhand for more KM/Razorice procs, but you will see slower DPS unless you actually get lucky and keep getting the maximum amount of procs.

    For the rotation I use (In PvE. PvP is case sensitive) IT (If I'm not on melee range), PS, Pest, BS, HB, Obliterate/FS (If I got power for 2xFS that comes first, but otherways Obliterate first to get the second FS). After the first rotation I just keep fever and plague up and mostly use Obliterate, FS, HB in random order basicly just when they are ready and drop BS everytime I have blood runes on. Ok I know the second part is bit hazy, but it works for me *shrugs*

    Anyways I hope this helps someone. Have fun freezing their butts off.

  11. Oh and I meant that I keep the diseases up on everyone so HB gives that bit extra too.

  12. A question about dual wielding (as frost favours it) should DKs be using Agi+Stam single handed weapons ? My understanding was that Str is the stat for DKs and not Agi. Yet all the single handed weapons I've seen with Str+Stam have been tanking weapons. The dps ones all seem to come with Agi on them.

  13. @Quiwi - Thanks, that's pretty similar to what I do. Great comment!

    @Anon - Str is definitely a better stat for DKs, but I still wouldn't pick up anything with dodge and defense on it. Agi is not totally wasted (gives us Crit), but it's not all that great. Like you, though, I've been seeing a lot of those drops. Str DPS weapons are few and far between, that is perhaps the biggest downside I've found so far to this spec: It's really hard to find the ideal weapon.

    In the mean time... if the DPS on the weapon is significantly higher (let's say more than like 10DPS), recall that that is going to boost all of your special abilities that go off weapon damage. So, that's really the first thing to look at. If it has Agi+Stam but great DPS, you might want to choose that weapon. Especially if it doesn't hurt you in other areas (i.e. has crit or haste on it, or even AP).

    Either way, it is definitely a challenge to find, and Str is definitely our favorite stat.

  14. I generally skip using Plague Strike completely. Fulgarlis, Obliterate does 80% weapon dmg plus 467.2 and an extra 12.5%/disease. So no, you don't lose out on double. If you are looking to maximize dps then yes keep both up, but this isn't EJ, so not a big deal.

    I do think the Disease glyph is far inferior to the Frost Strike glyph tho. Do that and swap a couple of points into Chill of the Grave and you will see a lot more FS being thrown around.

    HB OB BB BB (or BS, whichever) dump RP w/FS then use OB and FS as needed. Free procs of HB are nice and you really should rarely see the diseases fall off of your targets.

    DW weapons are going to be agility only. will show you 0 items. Drop the strength requirement and 43 items show back up. Agility provides crit which will count toward your melee hits, bnut not toward any spells like Frost Strike. Don't worry about it. The slowest weapons in the 232+ ilvl range you will find are 2.7 speed, most are 2.6. Just worry about the weapon DPS and the other stats it provides you.


  15. @Hagen - Sounds good. And you're right that 12.5% isn't as much as I'd feared. It'd certainly be easier to forget about the SS altogether, and is in fact something I generally do on my tank.

    Isn't there some Str on tanking 1H? I thought I've seen a few with like Str Dodge and block and such. If I'm right... then we don't want those for sure. Like you said, Agil is still fine and the weapon DPS should be the main thing we look at.

  16. didn't let me include the wowhead link. I set the weapons to 1H mace/axe/sword ilvl 232+ alliance, resilience, spell power, defense to 0, speed and strength > 0 and got 0 results. Drop strength and you get 43.


  17. Yes you will find Str on the tanking 1H weapons, but there are VERY few tank weapons > 2.0 spd. Broken Promise is the only one in the game at 200+. Quel'Serrar has only Stamina.


  18. Yeah, so they're def not going to be very good for us.

  19. Also, I know we've pointed out this isn't EJ, but I was browsing their DW thread and basically they said Frost Strike, Oblit and Ict Touch. They feel both diseases are too important now. Glyph of Disease used to let you pop trinkets and get your diseases stacked when AP was high then keep rolling, but now when Pestilence is used it looks at your stats again, so GoD isn't very useful anymore.

    I'd say Icy Touch or HB are both fine glyphs, I prefer the simplicity of HB personally


  20. This is the first time I visit this site, and read anything here. So... hello. :)

    But it was linked from, and since I recently switched one of my specs to DW frost, and I really enjoy it. It does not give me the same dps as my Unholy spec. But I feel a bit more active in terms of what buttons to press.

    I did enjoy reading this article, tho I have to comment about the single target rotation you posted:

    IT > PS > OB > FS > Pest > OB > OB > FS

    As noted by another here, you only use blood runes for Pestilence, which you said is because it might screw around with runes, and not being able to keep up the diseases. I would suggest that you should try without the Glyph of Disease, or just ignore it every now and then, so the rune cooldown doesn't get all weird.

    If you look at what runes you are using after the first pestilence (and when you use it): The diseases have only run about 6 seconds at the time you refresh them the first time. That is 7-9 seconds too early.

    If you would have used the two first blood runes for Blood strikes, then Obliterate, and use any frost strikes/rime procs, before you again use Icy touch and Plague strike. You have delayed the disease refreshments by 8 seconds or so.

    And if you count what rune spells you have done when the blood runes come of cooldown, you got 2 blood strikes, 1 plague strike, 1 icy touch, 1 obliterate. Apposed to the 1 pestilence and 2 obliterates in your rotation.

    Now you have 2 death runes, which can be used for another obliterate. Instead of the awkward 1 blood 1 death rune.

    IT>PS>OB>BS>BS>rime/frost strike>OB>IT>PS
    (Tho, Killing Machine procs are used as soon as you get them)

    I'm not an EJ, I don't really sit down at excel creating spreadsheets. But I do visit them from time, updating myself on the most important stuff. As well, I'm not a hardcore min/maxer, but if I could improve myself by changing small things in my talent tree ect., while still not ripping out the fun of my game play.

    As a side note, I do run Frost, with talents in unholy instead of blood.
    And for me it fits better, having the 21 second diseases makes it easier to fit in a rotation with the runes. And I haven't had any experience with Glyph of Disease. Nor Howling blast, since well, if you have to use plague strike, it's not very good.

    I don't really have any math behind it, but I would think (not having tried it) that Glyph of Disease is a really weird choice of glyph when you don't have the Epidemic (21 second diseases) but have 15 second diseases, when the rune cooldown is ~10 seconds. And by only using GoD to refresh them, it limits the Blood runes to not being used as often as they could.

    But I guess that comes up to each individual player about how they like their diseases. (that sounded weird...)

    I'm sorry for making this a bit long post, I got carried away. >.<
    And well, it wasn't my intention to get the l2pnoob post. Tho I do see it might look that way, but I really only wanted to share my thoughts about the rotation you used, and how it possibly could be improved.


  21. np and thanks for the feedback. After getting so much response on here, it's definitely going to be something I try to work in more and see how it goes. The problem now is that with the LFG system... I'm running tank all the time so I don't have to wait! Once I get some good solid raid time to try it, I may revisit and update this post as there have been a lot of good suggestions.

  22. I personally can't make sense of your spec 15/56/0, i'm running with 15/54/0 as a base spec, what you do with those last 2 talents is up to you, throw them in deathchill and something else maybe?

    is what I'd be using

  23. @anon - Yes, yours is more of a pure raiding spec where I've taken some talents for PvP. Like Chilblains. If you're going with straight PvE, you'd probably drop a lot of what I have in favor of some of the talents you pick up.

  24. I am currently running a 53/18 frost-unholy dw spec and I want to know that if GoD is no longer an option then is there one i can replace it with or just let it sit and not worry about it? Also having 4/5 tier 9 allows for Blood Plague damage to be critical damage. So is Pestilence still something to work into rotation for AoE or should I focus on Single Target DPS? Sorry about all the questions but everything I thought I knew as "fact" suddenly isn't. Maybe just list me the best glyphs to have, Major and Minor.

  25. I'm still gonna use Pest and SS for now, but I will certainly give them less priority as I read and research more on the pros/cons. As long as I'm still using pest/SS, I'm going to have to keep GoD.

    If you want to quit on SS/Pest and thus get rid of the GoD (because it would be useless if you're not using the SS AND have the HB glyph), then, as Hagen pointed out above, you could probably go with the Glyph of Icy Touch in place of my GoD above. Minor would a bit more difficult to replace as the other three are pretty useless for a Frost DK. Probably the best of the rest is the Blood Tap one, if you're working blood taps into your rotation (which I'm not). Corpse explosion and Death's Embrace are equally useless for what we do. I'd probably just keep Pest, tbh.

  26. Looking at your build, and thinking more from a pvp point of view, wouldn't necrosis put out more dps than bladed armor, and blood caked blade would proc more often because you are DW'd.

    Now from what I'm seeing, you're attempting to max crit for the most part. If you perfer to keep the crit, might I suggest dropping something to pick up toughness 5, to maximize bladed armor.

    Otherwise, dropping the blood all together and going for Unholy may net an improvement. the first 5 points won't do much good, and you'll have to drop blood of the north to get blood caked blade, and you can switch to deathcoil instead of frost strike, which should do more damage anyway. Besides, you said yourself you're not using blood strike, does your rotation really rely on that 1 death rune from pestilence?

    Anyway, that's just my thoughts cause i can't actually play right now, but the build I'm looking at is in the link in my name, and I'd love to have some feedback.

  27. Great suggestions, especially the toughness one. That has great synergy with bladed armor that I may have to explore.

    I'm not sure which wins, necrosis or bladed armor.

    I do try to use BS, it just doesn't always work out that way. Even alternating btw Pest and BS keeps me with death runes and really makes my rotation flow. I'd be afraid to go without them. Instead of an extra OB every time (like a really tight, raid rotation), I probably end up with an extra OB every other time through.

    Would Death Coil really out damage Frost Strike? I'm under the impression Frost Strike is a big part of the reason to go Frost (and is better).

    But yeah, great food for thought.

  28. I am blood dk 51/0/20. I read the rotations that everyone has posted and wanted to get your thoughts on what would be best for this set up.
    I hear so go with IT>PS>DS>HS>DC and then repeat DS>HS. Others don't use DC, some use BS. I was looking for some help to increase my dps.

  29. Well, I'm no expert in blood, having only dabbled in that spec... but from what I understand HS is a better, talented version of BS... so you would almost never want to use BS when you have HS. The only caveat here is that HS hits multiple targets, so in cases where AoE might be bad, you might want to hold off on using HS in favor of BS.

    Also from what I've read, I think the goal of any DK spec is to get diseases up, use your tree-special attack, and then finish up with RP dumps and "other" attacks. This is pretty much what you're doing: putting up two diseases, using DS in place of where I'd use OB, then squeezing in a HS before RP dump. I'm not sure how death runes would work out in blood spec, but this is a good approach.

    After the first time through the rotation I would use DS and then HS as long as you keep your disease up. You may want to refresh the diseases with a pest glyph to allow more DS's.

    I'm not sure why someone wouldn't use DC. You're going to have a boatload of RP... where else can you dump it for damage? I know Frost we have Frost Strike, but I think it's all DC for other specs. Thus, you're going to want to use a DC when you're in danger of maxing out your RP. Don't let that bar max out or you're losing DPS. RP dumps are pretty much used when you've put all your other abilities on CD. If you're efficient in the rotation, there should be plenty of time to weave a DC in.

    Any other blood DKs out there have any advice? I'll poke around a bit and see if I can find anything more conclusive with the 3.3 changes.

  30. Thanks for the info. Suggestions on best dps build for dk? is it blood or is it now unholy after the last patch? Thanks again

  31. The best DPS build? Frost apparently. I always go by the EJ Simulationcraft numbers... here's what they have:

    9941 27.1% Death_Knight_T9_00_53_18
    9909 27.0% Death_Knight_T9_03_51_17
    8882 24.2% Death_Knight_T9_17_00_54
    7987 21.7% Death_Knight_T9_51_00_20

    the last three numbers are the spec, so the top is 0/53/18. Now, there aren't convenient Wowhead links or anything so you're gonna hafta figure out how those points are spent (I believe you could gleen it from the parse, but I don't go that route).

    This tells me I should think about speccing more heavily in the unholy tree with my "extra" points... hmm.

  32. There's some great info about Frost Builds here though:

  33. What sigil progression do you suggest? I still have the one I started with.

  34. I used that one for a long time and then finally picked up a higher one. There have been a lot added since I've last been in the market I think. In any case, I'm sporting the Sigil of Awareness which is a 213 piece.

    Now, I'm gearing everything to T9 and will probably try to pick up Sigil of Virulence or if you're itching for things to spend your Frost Emblems on, the Sigil of the Hanged Man. With the ease of getting badges, those are probably the only two you need to know about.

  35. Thanks for the sigil info.

    I've been following both of your guides (DPS and tanking). I started out with the L78 PvP set and have slowly been adding drops from heroics. I bought my first T9 piece tonight (goodbye BoA chest piece!).

    Haven't been able to tank yet :(

  36. What about weapons? I know its not good for a DK to be useing Agil, and because of rogues, all one handers are generally have Agil, so what do you guys do for weps?

  37. Well we have to pick from what's out there. You're right in that there are very few true DK 1h weapons. Still, remember that all of our special attacks scale off of the DPS of the weapon, so if the DPS is a good amount higher... then agility be damned. Also, make sure you stick with slow 1h's as well.

  38. Thank you Fulguralis.

  39. Great post w/ some good pointers, am going to respec tonight and run a few heroics to test it all out.

    I have to say though i have used GoD for some time now and it does flow with my current blood dps spec (also works on my defunct tank spec) to keep my diseases rolling and dps up :)

    Will trial it with the DW frost spec and see how i go...

  40. Dont forget.. i saw a post about wanting a faster weapon in your off hand so that razorstrike would proc more. But something that most people forget about is that most enchants HAVE to proc so many times a minute so the slower the weapon the more it procs. And with enchants that increase damage by a percentage you want something that hits hard (20% from 100 is a lot less that 20% from 250).

  41. M8 with DWing you need 8% per each weapon, plus the penalty from using OHander. so roughly you'd need 28% hit not to have any glancing or even misses.

  42. I just had another comment about hit the other day... here's what I wrote.

    The 8% melee cap is referenced several places on EJ with regards to patch 3.3. Perhaps the best explanation I've found is in the Frost DPS section here:

    The little blurb on hit explains it thoroughly and can easily be adapted for tanks since hit affects both specs the same. Here is the direct copy/paste...

    "32.8 rating gives you 1% hit, therefore you will require 263 hit rating (164 with Nerves of Cold Steel) or 8%, to be hit capped on special attacks. This means, contrary to what some might think DW builds actually require less hit to cap their special attacks than our two handed brothers. Special attacks include: Blood Strike, Plague Strike, Frost strike, Obliterate. (and others that we don't care about as DW)

    Spell hit cap is 17% against level 83 (boss level opponents. The talent Virulence provides 3% hit for spells, the Druid talent Improved Faerie fire, or the Shadow priest talent Misery will further reduce this requirement by 3% (Hit debuffs do not stack.) The final result brings the requirement via gear down to 11%, at which point no spell will miss. Spells include Howling blast, Icy touch and Death coil.

    White hits have a hit cap of 27%. The talent Nerves of cold steel reduces this by 3%. At this point, no white hits (or any attack for that matter) will miss. This cap is not reasonable to reach for any DK, and should not be attempted. However, keep in mind that gaining hit over the spell hit cap still has a dps value as it will allow more white damage, more blood caked blade procs, and more Killing machine procs." - via linked EJ article.

  43. It is important to note in the above explanation that for DW it is only a higher number for white noise attacks. Your specials and spells still follow the exact "hit rules" as our 2H brethren.

  44. I have seen many rotations for frost dual wield specs and tried many since i rolled the thing. What i ended up with is a very tight rotaion that ramps up the damage over a short time to let the tank build agro and sets up for multiple ob's. I roll in with a IT to close and a PS when at melee range drop one OB and go into Pest (disease glyph) BS (now i have 2 death runes) HB if its up and rune dump FS (FS glyph). should get you 4 FS with +30 RP. And then it opens up into 3 OB plus any HB procs. rinse repeat. But like i said its a very tight rotation and is a pain with targets that move alot. cptmidnight mok'nathal

  45. I feel like I'm resurrecting the dead by posting here, but I would like to add my 2 cents. I personally use a very strict rotation at the beginning of raid fights, but it opens up quite a bit towards the end as RP gets more/less available (depending if a resto druid is in the group). I open with a pre-pull Potion of speed+Blood Tap +Unbreakable Armor then hit IT-PS-Oblit-Pest-Rune refresh thing (forget the name again)-oblit-oblit-oblit-RP dump, this gives me great burst damage right off the bat and sets up my rotation for the rest of the fight. For the remainder of the fight i repeat this rotation: Ob-Ob-Pest-BS-RP dump-Ob-Ob-Ob. With the change to Icy Talons and glyph of disease, I refresh both of my diseases and Icy talons with pestilence about 1-.5 seconds before they drop off (assuming im using my runes as they become available) and on fights like festergut where i can park on a boss, I can pull well over 10k dps in ICC10 gear. If you aren't comfortable with refreshing your diseases with such a little margin for error, then on the next rotatiion after blowing the rune refreshing thing, throw in a pest-BS and you will be refreshing diseases with ~4 seconds left on the duration, but at the cost of dps. I also make a point of using my Blood Tap-UA macro every time it is off CD, and try to time it for right after i use BS so there is as little change to my rotation as possible and use another potion of speed whenever heroism/bloodlust is used. For reference i use a 3/53/15 spec with subversion over BCB purely for threat reasons. If you want to look me up, Im Paodk on Elune US.

  46. Ha, perhaps. This is pretty much what I end up doing, though I usually opt for the more forgiving 4s window and lose DPS accordingly. Over time I've found that it's less of a rotation and more of a priority system, but a rotation is easier to start with and then evolve from as you grow used to the playstyle.

  47. My "rotation" ends up being a priority system, especially in longer fights, the Blood Tap-UA every minute slowly messes with my rotation until there is no more rotation after about 2-3 minutes.

    On a side note, I finally figured out how to change my thing from anonymous to a name...

  48. Yeah, that's what I've noticed too.

    And it auto-puts my name in for me, so I have no idea how much of a PITA it is :-). Blame Google. Lol

  49. I have been rolling a frost dk since day 1 that i started it 3 weeks after lich king came out. i have played around with alot of dps/tank builds for dk's and always end up back as frost.

    for dps i prefer dw over 2h mostly because its really cool to put out 13k dps dw and laughing at the 2h guys doin 9k. However, Tanking its 2h all the way because you will loose out crucial talent points with ToT and the other dw hit talent.

    anyway what has always worked best for me 2 slow weaps first of all. if yur good enough shoot for the higher end wrathful weaps simply because of the rediculous crit and attack power. if your like most people then a pair of Trauma (festergut 10) or couple frost giants cleavers would be excellent choices.(armor pen is yur friend) + the gem slot on the heroic version is great for a +20 str gem. if your going to be raiding in icc then Lichbane is an excellent choice 4% increased damage to undead is great follow that with i think its razorice( the one that pumps frost and shadow dmg) and you have a deadly combo.

    as far as a rotation goes. i have had great luck with a simple IT>PS>BS>Pest>OB>OB RP dump. make sure to use Unbreakable armor as often as possible and blood tap i think its called(the skill that refreshes a blood rune) as it increases yur dmg with the 4 part teir bonus dont forget to spam HB when they are free and i can usually time it right to use burn rime with a FS as it hits hard as hell when it crits(14kish as opposed to the 6k IT) there is alot of leway with your runes so just make sure you use them when you can.

    Just make sure that you dont was an OB or FS with out BOTH diseases being up because if u have no diseases then you have no dps.

    as far as glyphs im the same as most of you. HB, horn, oblit and FS(the cheaper it is the more often u can use it) do the math on FS no glyph it costs 40 rp with glyph it cost 32 so you get 1 more with the same amount of RP gained and its a big part of your dps. also Blood pressence is great, it boosts yur dps out of the gate but i have only noticed a minor difference with Unholy
    +- 300 the movment speed is great for putricide chasin him around and blood is great for stationary bosses like fester or saurfang.

    sorry im so long winded but i just wanted to touch base on a few things i feel are important

  50. np and thanks for the input. It looks like some solid advice.